The Chairman, Presidential Advisory Committee Against Corruption, Prof Itse Sagay, speaks with TUNDE AJAJA on the loot recovery efforts of the Federal Government, issues surrounding the judiciary and other matters of national interest
You said at a news briefing recently that about N1tn looted funds has been recovered. How difficult has your job been, given the level of corruption in Nigeria?
Nigeria is a difficult country, where every sector of the society is corrupt. There has been a concentration on the elite, particularly the political elite, but that doesn’t mean they are the only ones. I think the only reason why the anti-corruption agencies are concentrating on the political elite and the civil service is that they are the leaders and they control our resources, which some are helping themselves to. At every other level, there is corruption. The most junior messenger in an office could hide your file until you give them money before they retrieve it. You go to court to serve a process, you have to give bribes. If a judgement is given, for you to get the copy that is typed and signed so as to know the judgement of the court, you have to bribe someone, not the judge, but officials who work in the registry or the judge’s office. That’s the judiciary. Think of any other sector in Nigeria and you would find corruption there.
Corruption is now almost a permanent feature of our character. So, it’s a tough battle. Our hope is that if we can control it at a high level, the reformed moral tone will percolate down and people will begin to change. Nigeria is a country entitled to democracy which we are all enjoying, but our people do not demonstrate discipline in a free society. The impression Nigerians have created is that they only operate in a disciplined manner when they are under some fear of retribution. That is unfortunate. The problem we now have as a country is how we can achieve the aims of discipline or anti-corruption fight without throwing away our liberty. So, when Amnesty International and Transparency International make their remarks, they don’t really consider what the government is faced with. It’s a very serious dilemma.
Corruption is a global challenge, but ours seems to be peculiar. Do we tie it to greed, lack of commensurate consequence or it’s a matter of culture?
I think it’s a culture that crept in on us. It didn’t use to be there. When I was young; people were satisfied with what they had, but now, maybe the introduction of revenue from petroleum resources is the basis of our downfall. I think when oil money came, people abandoned hard work, our culture, respect for dignity, discipline and integrity. The urge is to acquire and accumulate as much as possible within a very short time. As the ones at the top do that, the ones below are also getting theirs in different ways. That’s why I always laugh when they say the young ones are the leaders of tomorrow. Many of them are not better than the politicians; all they think of is how to make money. That’s why you have internet fraudsters (yahoo boys) everywhere. They are not thinking of our future; they are not planning a greater tomorrow for Nigeria. They want to get to power so they can do what the present, older ones are doing, which is sad.
The judiciary is seen by many as an enabler of the corruption in the system, in which case small offenders get maximum sentence while influential offenders get sentencing that is akin to a slap on the wrist. Is that justified in law?
I’m not the most popular among them, but like any other institution, there will be some members who do wrong things. There are corrupt judges; there is no question about that. No judge can say every judge is upright. Some were dismissed in the past; we know them. But what I noticed in my little interaction with the judiciary is that they feel offended if you raise the issue of corruption in the judiciary. Even the good ones feel all of them are being accused, so they become defensive.
They even try to defend the corrupt ones among them just to expel any idea of corruption and I think that is the greatest danger or problem we have in trying to end corruption in the judiciary. The fact that the good ones will not separate themselves from the corrupt ones or partner with any organisation that wants the corrupt ones out does not help. Instead, they feel offended and try to accommodate those who are bad, even though they know they are bad. I have seen that at every level of the judiciary and it saddens me. There is this espirit de corps. Regardless of what you have done, once you are in the judiciary, you are untouchable.
In 2016, personnel of the Department of State Services invaded the homes of some judges and there were reports that incriminating items, including wad of cash, were found in the homes of some of them. In the end, none of the judges was convicted. Would you say the suspicions by the DSS were spurious or the judiciary shielded its own?
What the judiciary did was the most terrible thing. Money was actually found in the home of some of them and it was reported. Some had even admitted to the offence, but suddenly they (judges) devised a new principle of law that before you can try any member of the bench, it has to be reported to the National Judicial Council. That means if the matter has not gone to the NJC, no matter how guilty that person is, you cannot touch him. So, they were all discharged on the grounds that the report was not first made to the NJC. I don’t think that would help at all.
The ICPC said about a year ago that between 2018 and 2020, N9.4bn exchanged hands between lawyers and judges, which reinforces that submission that there are corrupt judges in our system. How do we rid the system of this mess?
You have brought in a point I have always pondered on, which is the cause of judicial corruption. Unfortunately, it is lawyers, my colleagues, who have polluted the minds and culture of the judiciary. They introduced to the poor judges huge sums of money they could not have imagined in 10 lifetimes. Some lawyers make to the poor judges offers that cannot be refused. That’s where it starts from. If you can stop the lawyers, that problem would virtually be solved, because it’s very rare for a client to go directly to a judge for that purpose. In the past, judges were dismissed. But were they sent to prison? No. During the Sani Abacha regime, an enquiry was set up under the late Justice Kayode Eso and some judges were found guilty. There were some who did not even have a law degree and were in the judiciary. They were kicked out and punished. Other than that, nothing has happened. I’m not going to mention names, but we had a case when all the evidence was there, and this time, it was not an issue of the matter not being referred to the NJC, but of a judge who sat and rationalised all the things his colleague in the dock did. If we do not break this espirit de corps issue, judicial corruption will not be solved. I think we need some very hard approach by the anti-corruption agencies. They are doing well but we need to do more. The ICPC told us some weeks ago of two civil servants who owned over 300 houses in Abuja. How? Other people around that circle must know about it. So, we also need officials who can put their foot down for right things to be done.
For a long time, the courts have not had the full complement of judges, yet we have many competent lawyers that can be called to the bench. Why the hesitation to appoint judges, given the volume of pending cases we have?
I don’t think the shortage is due to unwillingness. It is caused by lack of resources. A judge is a very expensive officer to maintain; they need to have so many things but their salaries are too low. I heard what was announced by the President of the Court of Appeal and I was a bit shocked. That is because of the lack of resources. Nevertheless, we should go out of our way to make judges comfortable. Pay them good salaries and help them to have their own accommodation after retirement. I think with these, many judges would resist bribery. I have not interviewed anyone, but I believe it is out of desperation that some do it, with the thought of how to survive when they retire. The government should make more resources available to procure modern equipment. We have to go digital. On few occasions, I have appeared as an expert witness in British Courts. There, the judge hardly writes anything; proceedings are electronically recorded and someone takes notes. After hearing, they print everything for the judge. It makes his work easier. But our poor judges here have to write.
I don’t go to courts anymore, I’m retired now but I understand that electronic devices are being introduced gradually. We have to do that because there is no way we can cope with the pressure of modern activity and the level of litigation. Nigerians are litigious people. If you give some Nigerians the opportunity, they would file 100 cases in one week. Our judges need logistics and modern equipment. It’s terrible and barbaric for judges to be writing by hand today. The role of judges is critical and delicate and with the type of people we have in this country, particularly lawyers who can corrupt anybody, we need to fortify the judiciary to be able to resist such things.
In January 2018, you mentioned at a roundtable discussion on lingering corruption cases that about 2,003 unending high profile cases existed. How many of such cases do we have now, given examples like that of Col. Sambo Dasuki?
We still have so many of such cases, but I don’t know the exact number. You cited one of them but there are more. I don’t want to mention names. If I’m to guess, I would say there are probably up to 30 of such high-profile cases that have stopped moving within the prosecution process.
Why did they stop moving?
I don’t know what is going on and that is why I’m angry with the Caretaker Chairman of the All Progressives Congress (Mai Mala Buni) who has been going about recruiting heavyweights from the Peoples Democratic Party; people who already have problems with the law. What is that intended to establish? You don’t go and start buying people to join your party. Your party’s policies should attract the right type of people. So, all these are adding to the problems we have. I’m not too sure some of these people are not hoping that by crossing over, any case that has been prepared against them would be suspended or withdrawn. I’m not too sure that’s not their conception. It’s not right, it is making politics look cheap and it’s lowering the public perception of the quality of leadership in governance by just recruiting people without any clear ideological reasons, except personal advantages for such people in the hope that they have some political power. For me, that is corrupt politics.
The former chairman of the party, Mr Adams Oshiomhole, once said when you join the APC, your sins are forgiven; many people believe that was a reflection of the party’s values and motivation.
He committed a sin by saying that. As far as I’m concerned, that was clearly a sin.
Many people have argued that the two parties are the same, because when APC was formed, many aggrieved PDP members, under the auspices of new PDP, joined the APC, and many more have defected from the PDP to their camp. So, aren’t they the same?
It appears so, but there is a difference. If you look at the people who formed the APC and the various levels of leadership they have, there is a distinction. The APC has people who have shown greater commitment to the masses and the development of the country rather than accumulation. The PDP was a machine for simply assembling our resources and dividing it among themselves. They had absolutely no restraint. So, the APC is not like that. There may be quite a number of individuals in the APC who have that PDP orientation, but basically, the APC was formed by people who wanted to make a clear difference. Unfortunately, some of the things this government has done have been suppressed and overtaken by insecurity. If you look at the Social Investment Programmes, they are just fantastic. There are children in their millions all over the country who are having free lunch every day, probably the best meal some of them have. Also, look at the poorest of the poor getting N5,000 a month which people deride, but in fact, those getting them are very happy.
We have written, confirmed reports that some of them actually use the money to go into small enterprises and have gradually risen in stature and are now doing well. We also have the case of young people being trained in various professions and being paid N30,000 pending the period they are under instruction. You also have TraderMoni and other programmes. These interventions have proven to be very useful to those who got them. It’s succour to the most impoverished and vulnerable Nigerians. No government has done that before. If you look at infrastructure like railways, Niger Bridge and roads, they are totally unprecedented. Unfortunately, this security issue, which is the number one in everyone’s plate now, is covering up this achievement, and I’m very sad that come 2023, all the debate may be on security and people would ignore all the positive things that have been done. I pray we will be able to overcome these security challenges before then so that the true picture of what this government has done for the country can come out clearly before we make a choice as to the way forward.
You said the APC is different from the PDP; will you be surprised if there are revelations of looting under this government if another party produces the next president?
No, I won’t be surprised. You cannot vouch for what everybody in government or in positions of authority will do. We are too many. But I think once none of the critical members of government, like the President, Vice-President, governors and ministers is involved, it will be alright. You cannot really rule out what people at the lower echelons will do.
You said about a week ago that part of the recovered loot was spent on funding the budget and funding the Social Investment Programmes, while some people have said paying N5,000 stipend is not the way to end poverty. What do you make of that argument?
One man enraged me when he said on the television that he had never seen one person who said he got the N5,000 and that he never saw any child say they ate free lunch. Who is he that people would report to him that they had received N5,000. If he wants to find out, he should go and make enquiries. That project is not even the original idea of this government; it’s a World Bank thing. It was already in place before this government came in, they merely reinforced it. Many of the beneficiaries have appeared on television, giving thanks to God that this particular succour has been introduced by the government.
Some people have said the lack of transparency in who gets what erodes the believability of the programme, should the list of beneficiaries be a secret?
Yes, the government itself may not be releasing the list, but the people have come out in public. For example, at the last Bola Tinubu birthday colloquium that I attended about four to five years ago, a lot of the beneficiaries turned up. The school feeding programme, for example, creates employment for thousands of people, like cooks and poultry farmers who supply eggs. So, there is no question about it. The government is right by not releasing the names; they don’t want to embarrass anybody. Such people may be derided by the well-to-do who feel N5,000 is nothing, but the schools’ list can be produced anytime. Virtually every state now is enjoying that free lunch; nutritious foods that the children are getting. Anybody who says it’s not true is not saying so in good faith. When we even want to act in bad faith, we should do it with care. How can the government have such a big project and you say you haven’t seen one person. Who is going to report to them? It’s a good innovation; I pray the coming government in 2023, which I hope would be APC, would continue with it.
Do you support the planned N5,000 for 40 million Nigerians as palliative for the removal of fuel subsidy and do you think government should go ahead?
No, I’m not in support of that at all. I understand why it’s being done; Nigeria Labour Congress will not hear anything about cutting subsidy, and I think it is a way of pandering to the NLC that this money is to be given between six months and one year, to give the beneficiaries a transition period. I think government’s approach in this regard is wrong. What is the problem? We are importing refined petroleum products whereas if we refine everything here, there will be no subsidy and petrol will be cheap. If I were in government, I would sit on the neck of Dangote and compel him to complete his refinery because once that refinery starts producing petrol, that’s the end of subsidy. Every year, it seems like a deliberate delay of some sort for this subsidy issue to end. Once that is done, Nigeria can have all its petrol internally refined and that would cut all the associated cost of importation and this problem of subsidy would finally be put to rest.
Many people expect and have even called on the President to make the NDDC audit report public, but they believe the reluctance is because some of the persons close to him were indicted in the report. What do you make of this silence?
At least there should be a white paper. Having got a report, government should respond by issuing a detailed statement on the report, containing the wrongs done, who were behind the wrongs, what would be done in the future to ensure that the NDDC is run in a manner to improve the quality of life of the people in that area.
Some people believe the EFCC is focusing more on yahoo boys than on the big thieves. What do you make of that?
I think the latter is ongoing. There are a lot of big names under one form of trial or the other; it’s just that they are so difficult. They have so much influence, they hire the best senior advocates, whose duty it is to muddle the waters, make everything complicated and difficult and prolong the trial because there is no real defence. So, they are being prosecuted. I think it’s a good idea that the EFCC is going after the yahoo boys because those are our so-called future leaders and if they start this way, I’m so sorry for the country. They are more intelligent and tech-savvy. They could wreck this country in one year if you put people like that in charge. When you look at what Hushpuppi did to take advantage of the United States and take the money meant to provide succour for their people, it shows you how tech-savvy Nigerians are, if only that could be channelled in a positive direction. It’s a shame a Nigerian did that. Our young ones are very bright, but we must discourage them from fraud and dishonesty and redirect their energy positively for this country to have a bright future.
The United States Government has not filed for the extradition of Abba Kyari, the policeman named in the Hushpuppi investigation. What do you think the government should do?
Looking at the man’s record, I don’t go with the general public in this regard. He has done so much for this country. Many of the difficult cases of kidnapping and other crimes were assigned to him and he always found out the people and got them arrested. When a man has done so much and he falls in one respect, I don’t believe we should just disregard everything he has achieved and stamp on him because of that. So, he is being given a soft landing and I’m in support of that.
A Federal High Court since 2017 directed the Federal Government to publish the names of looters. Why has the government disobeyed that order?
We are in favour of publishing the names of looters. There must be a technical, legal reason why it has not been published. I’m a lawyer and I assume that the argument probably in the Ministry of Justice is that as long as they are not convicted, you cannot publish it, otherwise you would be committing libel and it would be like convicting them before they are tried. I think that is the argument, but you know it gets to a stage when something is so blatant and someone is dragging the process and maybe the only thing you can get out of it is just to expose the person to the public and if they have any capacity to feel shame, let them feel it. That is my view, but I understand the reason why there is so much reticence from the government.
Do you think politicians have any modicum of shame?
They have no shame at all. They just do it and I also think the public does not punish them, because the next thing is they are being celebrated and rewarded with titles all over the place.
With the way corruption has deprived people of basic necessities, some people feel death penalty for corruption would help to reduce it. What do you think?
I think that is extreme. Long prison sentences would be enough. Death penalty is a bit harsh.
There have been cases of the Attorney General of the Federation, Abubakar Malami, intervening in criminal cases, such as the cases against Danjuma Goje and Stella Oduah. Is this appropriate?
We don’t have executive powers; so, we cannot do much. Our job is more of a think-tank and we engage a lot in capacity building for all the anti-corruption agencies, the judiciary and prosecutors. Those who have executive powers at times ignore what we say, otherwise we are against what you raised but the Ministry of Justice, for its own reasons, believe in it. They have the powers and they exercise it. We are not happy about it but there is nothing we can really do, except to express our view, which we have done.
2023 is fast approaching and aspirants are emerging already, but some of the persons that have shown interest in the two dominant parties have corruption baggage. One of the parties might produce the next president. How can Nigerians avoid being ruled by corrupt persons?
I don’t really know, but my feeling is that the process at times results in some form of purification and at the end of it, someone who has a good record and capacity emerges. I think at the end of the day, we will get our best. There is going to be a lot of competition and debates and at the end, the best will probably emerge. That is my hope.
What’s your position on the uproar the Electoral Act Amendment bill has generated, especially the contentious issue of direct primary?
I can understand the reason being given by the National Assembly for having preference for direct primaries, but if you look at it, it’s all a battle of self-interest. The governors want to have an overwhelming power in the process so they could nominate the people they want, including themselves. The members of the National Assembly do not want that; they want a system in which they have more influence and go by direct election and totally bypass any governor’s interest. I think that (direct primary) probably is better, morally, but my worry, from what I have heard is that it will be very expensive and unwieldy. Some experts I listened to said parties do not have the capacity to conduct nationwide primaries. Look at the Independent National Electoral Commission, with all the resources, powers and capacity that it has, it’s dealing with so many problems. Even in little Anambra State, there were issues. So, imagine a party trying to do that nationwide. I see the sense in that argument but I think we have to bow to common sense and accept that the process may not be as pure as we may want it, so that something sensible can emerge, not chaos and confusion. I’m inclined towards indirect primaries, even though I’m not happy that governors are the ones that would benefit from it. But for purely functional reasons, I’m inclined towards that.
Many people have described the 1999 Constitution as a fraud because there was never a time we, the people, agreed on the document. Will these amendments solve this problem?
It is true that we as the people didn’t come together to agree. It’s also true that the amendments have been irrelevant, because they don’t address the issues that matter, like devolution of power, restructuring, state police being made possible and total removal of anything concerning local governments from the constitution. The Federal Government should have nothing to do with the local governments. How do you put local government headquarters inside the constitution; it’s the most primitive thing I have ever seen. Leave it to the state governments. Let them create the local governments they want and they would fund it themselves. Those are the things that matter but they tinker with irrelevant things all the time. I believe we should push for a new document.
The mandatory declaration of assets by public officials was designed to track illicit acquisitions and curb corruption. Should those forms be secretive such that it can’t even be accessed through the Freedom of Information Act?
Declaring your assets is a very private thing. You declare what you have and what your wife and your children have. I have filled the form before but I was told it was not necessary for PACAC members because we are not executive members. It goes very deep into the person’s personal life and I don’t think that is really good for the public to have access to. It exposes people to all sorts of ridicule, extortion and attack. So, I support that provision for privacy, except a person is guilty and is taken to court. The employees of the Code of Conduct Bureau have access to the information. So, if you know anything about such people, go to that place, give them information, they will make enquiries and if there is a case, they will bring action against such a person before the Code of Conduct Tribunal. I don’t think it’s for the whole world to have access to. It won’t be fair to the public officers.
There is a bill to create additional seats in the National Assembly to accommodate more women, what do you make of it?
I don’t think the National Assembly should be creating extra seats for women. There are enough seats already. They can share some seats for men and increase women’s seats accordingly. We have enough representation. All they should do is to create a number of seats for women within the total number we have already. For instance, we have 109 seats in the Senate, they can say they are giving a minimum of 30 seats to women and that can be arranged. So, there is no need to create more seats.
